dharun ravi name change dharun ravi name change

Loeun Lun fired a gun in the air as a teenager to protect himself from a gang attack. However, the thought of whether he was Indian or not dissipated as the news about 18-year-old Clementis suicide sank in, leaving me chilled. Ravi never "harassed", "ridiculed", or even said "anything bad" about his roommate. He was credited with his time served, he had completed his probation, paid his $10,000 fine and completed the cyberbullying class ordered by Berman. Regardless, I wasnt inspired by this non-apology to demand Ravi be sentenced to additional jail time, as many others have been. Susan Abraham, a law professor and former public defender, said that she believed that the prosecution had established both the invasion of privacy and the bias intimidation charges. [36], Soon after these charges were filed, there were calls from gay rights advocates and bloggers to include hate crimes charges against Ravi and Wei. In regard to obstruction of justice, Fahy noted that a few texts by Ravi were "very difficult to explain". Later, she explained, Ravi tried to "cover up the tracks" of his actions by altering evidence. With my desi radar switched on, I immediately caught the name Ravi, and wondered whether he happened to be Indian, since I was familiar with it as a first name, never as a last name. "We met with an immigration lawyer and it's very, very unlikely," Altman said. By some estimates there are a million of those young people who live in a kind of immigration no-mans land, afraid that a missing taillight on their car can send them spiraling into deportation proceedings. It does not change my original sentiment. Just in case, I turned my camera away and put my computer to sleep so even if anyone tried it wouldn't work. Ravi posted to his 150 Twitter followers, "Roommate asked for the room till midnight. My behavior and actions, which at no time were motivated by hate, bigotry, prejudice or desire to hurt, humiliate or embarrass anyone, were nonetheless the wrong choices and decisions. But this thing happened in the first 3 weeks. We depend on the kindness of strangers but sometimes human beings can be cruel, very cruel, especially when they are just on the cusp of adulthood. 2023 BuzzFeed, Inc. All rights reserved. "I have said all along we were looking for justice and accountability. [17][50] This evidence included documents that showed that Clementi had titled files on his computer "Why does it have to be so painful" and took photographs of the George Washington Bridge a month before entering Rutgers. The fact that a Queerty commenter responded to Ravis non-apology with HE SHOULD HAVE GOTTEN THE FULL TEN YEARS!!!!!! But it had nothing to do with Tyler Clementi, his former roommate who jumped off the George Washington Bridge. Crass video games and reality shows rule our world, and nasty behavior is considered just another hi-jink; its a cool game to trespass on peoples privacy, to destroy their self-esteem. [66] Ravi said that his messages were made in a joking manner and that he later turned off the webcam so that no viewing would occur. The appeals court ordered that Ravi could be re-tried on ten other charges. A socially permissible opportunity to vent hatred without expecting to be called to task, almost as a right. I remember once, in freshman year, an older alumni followed some drunk female dorm-mates to our house, tried to hangout, was tolerated for a few hours, then, literally, kicked out when the creep-factor exceeded a certain threshold. Today, Ravi began his jail sentence, andthe Clementi family rejected his apology: As to the so-called apology, it was, of course, no apology at all, but a public relations piece produced by Mr. Ravis advisers only after Judge Berman scolded Mr. Ravi in open court for his failure to have expressed a word of remorse or apology. Stella, thanks for your application, but weve filled our victim-blaming crazytalk quota for this intake. Mr. Ravi was given that opportunity but chose to say nothing. Clementi saved two of the messages. Most doctors believe that you cant be suicidal without having a mental illness. ://blogs.wsj.com . Clementi doing that ruined Ravis life? department. Ravi's actions were not, she emphasized, a "prank", "accident", or "mistake", but rather were "intentional", "planned", "criminal", and "mean-spirited". Browse. In Dharun Ravi, the politicians and the media found a face to pin the bully tag on. Good to know I wasnt alone in that! But why should Indians have the monopoly on a blemish-free image? But why should Indians have the monopoly on a blemish-free image?. [6], Grover requested that Clementi later send him an e-mail to formalize the roommate change request, part of which was allowed as evidence. Ravi subsequently accepted a guilty plea deal from prosecutors, for one count of attempted invasion of privacy. Wei responded "Omg dharun why didnt u talk to me first i told them everything". Arent we all part of the human race? [44] Clementi's parents "supported leniency for Wei", believing that her "actions, although unlawful, were substantially different in their nature and their extent than the actions of Tyler's former roommate" and that she "was forthcoming and cooperative during the investigation. Ravi, supported by his parents who would spend about $300,000 in his defense, did not want to admit to something he felt in his heart "was a lie.". You have a right to move if you wish but I don't want you to feel pressured to without fully understanding the situation. More Local News to Love Start today for 50% off Expires 3/6/23, Mark Di Ionno | NJ Advance Media for NJ.com. He wants to disappear into the crowd.". It also means he probably will not get deported. I think it's bad for them. He also said that Ravi himself needed to testify to show he had no bias against gays and to explain the inconsistencies in his recorded interview with the police. You apologize because something you did caused terrible damage, even if unintended, in someone else's life. In June 2012, Immigration and Customs Enforcement officials announced that the convictions were not serious enough to seek deportation. The second saved message was sent by Ravi on September 21 (6:39p.m.), after Clementi late that afternoon requested private use of the room for another tryst: "Anyone with i-chat, I dare you to video chat me between 9:30 and 12. Then Tuesday when you requested the room again I wanted to make sure what happened Sunday wouldn't happen again and not to video chat me from 930 to 12. By entering your email and clicking Sign Up, you're agreeing to let us send you customized marketing messages about us and our advertising partners. He told me he had done it before that date" and "that he was planning on doing it again. I think the Clementis need to apologize to Ravi. If either of you, Leanne or Cassandra, remember the time when you or your friend, or your friends friend, or when you heard about someone that brought a 30 year old stranger into the dorm for sex and how that was handled, let me know. ! really surprised me. He has lost more than 25 pounds going through his ordeal," she said tearfully. Annie, I had the exact same thoughts. I accept responsibility for and regret my thoughtless, insensitive, immature, stupid and childish choices that I made on September 19, 2010 and September 21, 2010. That was his focus. Doc, Maybe that, ultimately, is Ravis gravest failure as a human being Tyler needed a friend, somebody to eat lunch with, and Ravi turned out to be anything but.. What I wanted to say with that rant was that I dont understand why someone looks at 30 days of gaol time and thinks its massively too short. Lavina once again a great article. "It was the state's. This is something people can point to and say, 'You guys are going overboard.' [16], Ravi left for ultimate frisbee practice around 8:309:00p.m.[16][74] If anyone knows of anyone who has ever brought a 30 year old to the dorm for sex, let me know. When the jurors found Dharun Ravi guilty on all charges, I was shocked. The benchmark of a good son is not just one who relishes his mother's home cooking or was in the Gifted and Talented program in kindergarten or started computer programming at the age of 15. That story got dropped like it was hot. That night. I would buy at least two copies! About Lassi with Lavina, Copyright 2015 Lavina Melwani and Lassi with Lavina. [5], Events leading up to the indictments and trial, September 19 viewing: Testimony of Rutgers students, September 21: Timeline of Ravi's communications and events, Clementi's complaints to Rutgers officials, Superior Court of New Jersey, Appellate Division, "Dharun Ravi trial update: Opening arguments in roommate webcam spying case", "Live coverage: Dharun Ravi found guilty on most counts in webcam spying trial verdict", "Dharun Ravi found guilty in Rutgers webcam spying trial", "Conviction Thrown Out for Ex-Rutgers Student in Tyler Clementi Case", "Roommate in Tyler Clementi Case Pleads Guilty to Attempted Invasion of Privacy", "Rutger's Trial: Dharun Ravi's Texts to Witness", "Text messages revealed in Rutgers webcam trial provide case's most dramatic evidence yet", "Jury Finds Spying in Rutgers Dorm Was a Hate Crime", "Invasion of Privacy Charges After Death of Tyler Clementi", "Live blog: Dharun Ravi sentenced to 30 days in jail", "Dharun Ravi arrives to begin jail sentence", "Dharun Ravi is released from Middlesex County jail", "In Rutgers Case, Testimony About Text Message Exchange", "Defendant in Rutgers trial: 'Keep the Gays away', "Former defendant Molly Wei: Other students viewed Rutgers webcam-video", "Exclusive interview with Dharun Ravi: 'I'm very sorry about Tyler', "Rutgers Defendant Wrote of Keeping "Gays Away", "Jurors see video of interview in webcam spy case", "Friend testifies Ravi seemed 'uncomfortable' with Clementi being gay", "Rutgers student Tyler Clementi's suicide spurs action across US", "Authorities subpoena Rutgers for e-mails regarding Tyler Clementi complaint of roommate's webcam", "Clementi seemed 'uncomfortable' when he reported conflict with Ravi, resident assistant testifies", "Ravi uses friend's laptop to set up webcam viewing", "Judge excludes part of email evidence in Rutgers trial", "Did Tyler Clementi Reach Out for Help Before Suicide? Would anyone really want their son or daughter to room with a person that would bring 30 year old strangers to the room met on the internet? The character witnesses called, he said, were ineffective because the prosecution showed there was "no foundation" for them to say that Ravi was not anti-gay. said his relationship with Clementi was a "good relationship", which included continual texting and online chats, and that Clementi was "happy" when he last saw him. Not because he was GAY but because he was 1)a stranger and 2)beyond the reasonable age group for the environment. "[46], Ravi was represented during the trial by attorneys Steven Altman and Philip Nettl of the New Jersey criminal defense law firm Benedict & Altman. Several minutes later she chatted about the incident online. I give up on this loser. I wanted to make amends for Sunday night. Most are walking a straight line (until they learn the lay of the land) the first few weeks (months) of college. [16][17] However, other witnesses testified that Ravi said he also wanted to confirm that Clementi was gay. Its the only way I can go on with my life.. Berman kept them out of the trial because Ravi wasn't charged in Clementi's death. Well said, Leena. That was enough to put him on the road to deportation. Photos Copyright 2015 Respective Photographers. I went into Molly's room and turned on my webcam. Thanks for writing this, Riese. Furthermore,young men between the ages of 17-19 are five times as likely to commit suicide than women of the same age. You seem to be able to turn everything into a beautifully flowing story, peppered with bits of your own opinions backed up by numerical data. And that is why we are here, six years after the incident. In the end it doesnt matter whether his name is Dharun Ravi or John Smith. Yes, I think inviting that stranger into the room was morally wrong. He said it was "ironic" that Ravi's letter "doesn't mention M.B. We know that gay men are more likely than straight men to delay or not get needed medical help or prescription drugs and we also know that LGB adults are more likely to need medication for emotional health issues than straight people (22% vs. 10%). [36], Soon after the charges against Wei were made public, Wei's attorneys released a statement proclaiming her innocence,[42] and a former New Jersey federal prosecutor commented that, "there's no evidence of Ms. Wei doing anything. Its the only way I can go on with my life. Heres the clincher, of course: even if it were possible to to increase the sensitivity and accuracy of existing referral systems so that the majority of students at risk of committing suicide were seen at their college counseling centers, meeting the needs of these students would be extremely costly and could require up to a 75% increase in counseling staff.. Again, Tyler had this plan to meet MB before he ever got to the school. [77] According to former prosecutor John Fahy, Clementi's e-mail and Grover's testimony were important in regard to whether or not Clementi "reasonably believed he was being intimidated". [68] The first student said that Ravi encouraged him to text friends to watch Clementi's date and that Ravi used his computer to test the angle of the webcam so that it was pointed at Clementi's bed. Is that because the perpetrator is Indian and his guilt is sullying the collective shining image of Indian-Americans? Whether in this country or in India, homophobia is perpetuated by a society which never speaks about homosexuality or if it does, it is in hushed tones, wink-wink talk or with outright disapproval. Afterwards, that same roommate took his own life. Ravi wrote: "Roommate asked for the room till midnight. Leading up the 2012 trial Ravi was offered several plea deals. Going to college can be a difficult transition period in which students may feel lost, lonely, confused, anxious, inadequate, and stressed. Rubin Sinins, Wei's attorney, said, "I'm unaware of any evidence of sexual contact. "[82], After 12 hours of deliberations over two and a half days, a jury of 12 members and three alternates reached a verdict on March 16, 2012. It is sad they chose to go after Ravi, considering that the bias intimidation allegation is highly questionable. [10] Ravi served 20 days of his 30-day jail term from May 31 to June 19, 2012, at the Middlesex County Adult Corrections Center in North Brunswick, New Jersey. [19], On September 21, Clementi complained to a resident assistant[24] and two other officials[25] that Ravi had used a webcam to videostream part of Clementi's private sexual encounter with another man. Time to get out of the complacency and self-congratulatory mode! Losing their son is indeed very sad, tragic and bad but he did this at his own hands. That's why he rejected the plea. Great article, Riese. i didnt know martina is a TERF, damn thats sad and frustrating., these are the best knot tying instructions on the internet. I am sorry but that is just not enough. I saw the real culprit as the casual cruelty of the online world where privacy is just another Facebook option. had to answer specific questions about the nature of that activity. [11][12], Before September 17, 2010, Clementi had chatted online with a man whose identity has not been made public. [11][93], Ravi was released from jail on June 19, 2012, after serving 20 days of his 30-day term, with 5 days of credit for good behavior and 5 days of work credits. As someone who has been hospitalized for suicidal thoughts four times I have no idea why there is all this fury at Ravi. Though our community is one of the most accomplished in this country, I have to say Lavina, there are certain areas where we have not matured or evolved (and I have observed this in both 1st and 2nd generation Indian Americans) too much. His defense has long argued Ravi's actions did . "I never changed my mind about that," he said. Certainly the testimony in the trial didn't suggest otherwise. you must be so SICK of writing about him I really feel for ya! I just want peace for the victims family. Reporters, bloggers and columnists across the US have weighed in on this and for once, the Indian-American community has had plenty to say. What do you think? ", and "Because I said we were just messing around with the camera." feels like an apology thats not really actually an apology at all. 's testimony, he and Clementi met on a social network site and the September 19 meeting was the second of three dates. "[38], Steve Altman, Ravi's attorney, said, "Nothing was transmitted beyond one computer and what was seen was only viewed for a matter of seconds." Ive written about how strange it is that what Ravi did to Clementi is done by college boys to college girls every day in this countryand nobody does anything about it, and how anybody whos been there probably isnt that shocked that Ravi saw his behavior as somehow acceptable or normal within the surprisingly primal environment of undergraduate co-habitation. */. Still, Ravi remained adamant that he did not spy on Clementi solely because he gay and was not trying to bully or intimidate him. [16] Ravi was charged with third and fourth degree invasion of privacy. I would love to have like 3 close friends I NEED conversation, its just that I cant DO it.. [16] According to a prosecution expert witness, Ravi deleted almost 100 text messages between him and Wei and another high school friend, whom he had invited to view Clementi's second encounter with his guest. Youve put in to words pretty much exactly what Ive been thinking about this whole thing. [8] Late on September 20, Clementi wrote to a friend online that, initially, he was not really bothered by what Ravi had seen in the first, brief viewing, primarily due to its extreme brevity. "[16], On September 28, 2010, Dharun Ravi and Molly Wei were charged with four and two counts of invasion of privacy, respectively, for their roles in the webcam spying incidents on September 19, 2010 and September 21, 2010. I mean, we all realize that the bullieswho literally told Jamey Rodemeyer to kill himself got off scot-free, right? [51] The judge did not grant Ravi's motion. [14][15], Ravi said he was worried about theft and that he left the computer in a state where he could view the webcam due to those concerns. Ravi told Huang the next day, "It got messed up and didn't work." Dharun Ravi stands alone in a New Brunswick, N.J., courtroom Monday following a sentencing hearing for his conviction in using a webcam to invade the privacy of his roommate, Tyler Clementi, and . You are also agreeing to our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy. I have it pointed at his bed. Dharun Ravi finally wept. This case, which began six years ago, is finally over. But yesterday he spoke, admitting his guilt to a charge of 3th degree attempted invasion of privacy, just one month after an appellate court overturned his previous conviction, dismissed five of the bias intimidation charges and recommended a new trial on the others. MB's attorney said that the jury had been thorough and that the jury was correct in not finding MB to be the victim of a bias crime since the Rutgers students "didn't know anything about our client". According to one student, the two men were turned so one could not see their faces. (Likewise, Clementi was unhappy about Ravi as a roommate. Ravi used his computer to spy on Clementi and the 30-year-old male guest known only in court as M.B. This is at an incredibly queer-positive law school in a country with limitations on free speech to punish hate speech, and specific tribunals set up to deal with discriminatory issues. The state's case lasted nine days, consisting of a score of witnesses and a thick stack of computer emails, tweets and instant messages into evidence. "[16] Ravi had set up the webcam and initially pointed it towards Clementi's bed. Like many of his neighbors KK fell into drugs and gangs while growing up on the hard-scrabble streets of a poor neighborhood in Long Beach, California. Dharun Ravi surely never imagined that that webcam could become a one-way ticket to his own deportation. Sunday night when you requested to have someone over I didn't realize you wanted the room in private. While many were appalled at the slap-on-the-wrist sentence, the judge went out on a limb because he obviously believed that this was more a callous prank gone horribly wrong than a full-fledged hate crime for which the law was intended. I cant stop and buy a fucking cup of coffee without hearing someone talk about him, or how they feel about the case, the verdict, the *apology*. Hanging out around queers helping to prevent suicide is cheap for the government and seems more likely to make him change his behaviour. [75], Shortly after 11 p.m. Ravi texted Clementi to see if he was still using the room. Two: The hostility toward Ravi fulfills the need of the news consumer/crime follower in that it is an easy way to be right, morally and absolutely, an opportunity seldom there for us in our own lives. He refused them all because they required him to admit to bias intimidation. On Rachels post last week about Ravis sentence,commenter Remich, who I believe is a law student or lawyer of some kind,presented an apt breakdownof why, when looking at the four principles that justify criminal punishment rehabilitation, deterrence,incapacitationand retribution Ravis appropriated jail time seems adequate. "[16], In an interview with investigators, Ravi said that on September 21 he had turned the webcam away from Clementi's bed. Author of Don't Let Him Know; Senior editor, Firstpost.com; editor, New America Media. So I will once again seek asylum here on AS happy in the knowledge that for a little while at least, I can read some interesting, thought provoking and entertaining articles without having to see that fucktards face. A third-degree crime is committed if one discloses a "reproduction of the image" of the observed person. [81], John Fahy, former Bergen County District Attorney, said after closing arguments that both the defense and prosecution did a "very good job". The story exploded on the national conscience as a case of homophobic cyberbullying, and Ravi was cast as the arch-villain. Seems this is a drama which we all will be watching for quite a while. M.B. "[37], After the first morning of the defense presentation on March 9, 2012, trial attorney Brian Claypool viewed the overall defense strategy as effective, but he questioned defense techniques in trying to show that Ravi was not anti-gay. A huge petition drive has been undertaken by Ravis family and friends to absolve him. [18][57] Wei said the scene was the same as that before, except that the men's shirts were off. M.B. But they certainly contributed to what critics called a light 30-day jail term Berman imposed on Ravi after his conviction on the 15 counts in 2012, for which he faced up to 10 years in prison. A Rutgers information technology analyst reported that iChat connections were made with Ravi's computer from these students' computers at 6:58 and 7:44p.m. on September 21. Late on the evening of September 21, after seeing Ravi's "dare you" tweet and just before his meeting with M.B., Clementi visited a resident assistant, Rahi Grover. Their son ruined Ravis life. [94], Ravi is a permanent resident of the United States who immigrated at age 6. [20] Clementi viewed Ravi's Twitter posts 38 times following the first webcam viewing. The resident assistant testified at trial that Clementi appeared shaky and uncomfortable when they met around 11 p.m.,[26][27] and in his official report of the meeting, the resident assistant said that Clementi requested both a room change and punishment for Ravi. Sign up for the free newsletter to get your dose of Lassi! Regarding bias intimidation, Fahy said that there was "not a lot of proof" that the viewing was done because Clementi was gay. One student said that Ravi had called Clementi "nice", and another said that Ravi had told him he had a gay friend. Id like to mention, again, because this fact is often overlooked, that only maybe five people actually saw the video feed of Clementi and they saw it for about thirty seconds. While Ravi was out for the evening on September 17, the man came to Clementi's dorm room for the first time. He says he will submit to his jail sentence on Thursday. Dharun Ravi, the former Rutgers student convicted of using a webcam to spy on his gay roommate, Tyler Clementi, is scheduled to be released from jail on Tuesday morning. What a strange outlook you have. also said that when he lay in Clementi's bed, he heard people joking and laughing in the courtyard, and it "seemed like the jokes were at somebody else's expense". At that time I had written that it's too easy to cry hate crime. Nevertheless, I decided to accept and hopefully complete the sentence as soon as possible. The three-judge panel dismissed four bias intimidation counts against Dharun Ravi because of a change in state law since Ravi's 2012 trial. Five days after the verdict, Ravi said in an interview: "I'm not the same person I was two years ago. I won't ever get up there and tell the world I hated Tyler because he was gay, or tell the world I was trying to hurt or intimidate him because it's not true. Home; Categories. 2023 Advance Local Media LLC. As an Indian-American, one cant turn anywhere without hearing the name Dharun Ravi. Is any racism at play here, too? Ravi responded, "It got messed up and didn't work. Yup, leave it to Ravi to present an apology that didnt actually involve apologizing! Dharun Ravi appears in Middlesex County Superior Court, in New Brunswick, N.J. I seem to recall, at some point in recent history, having a series of strong or definitive emotions about Dharun Ravi, but those emotions seem half-baked in retrospect. THAT makes me see red. [7] If Ravi has to be a whipping boy, it should be for the real need for education on ethics. Aug. 25, 2010 You apologize because something you did caused terrible damage, even if unintended, in someone else's life. Dharun Ravi did not take a plea bargain in December that would have avoided jail time altogether and put him on probation with 600 hours of community service. You are punished first for the crime you committed. In these days & times? So,when Ravi was sentenced last week,Judge Glenn Bermanhad said to him: I heard this jury say, guilty 288 times 24 questions, 12 jurors. You apologize for what you have done, for what has happened. Most Americans in his position would have jumped at it. I believe justice should be served. Perhaps that is why, even now, Ravi cannot find the words to apologize. But Dharun Ravi, it's not about you. Yesterday, Tyler's Rutgers University roommate, Dharun Ravi, 20, was hit with a mere 30-day sentence for spying with a Web cam on Tyler as he engaged in sex with a much-older guy. You don't apologize to change people's minds or how people see you. By pleading guilty to the. His posts indicated that he did not want to share a room with Ravi after he learned about the first incident and then discovered that Ravi invited his Twitter followers to watch a second sexual encounter. He has been called out for his actions The case stems from circumstances surrounding the 2010 suicide of Tyler Clementi. I felt uncomfortable and guilty of what happened. I cant get away from this fucking story. Studies indicate that college students who are suicidal are quiet, reserved, depressed, and socially isolated, and thus it is up to all of us to try to identify thesuicide warning signsand get help for them. they are clearly described and as at least one other, Happy to report that as a big romance reader, this is one of the best Ive ever read. After discussing with friends Ravi's first Twitter message ("saw my roommate making out with a dude"), Clementi, at 3:55a.m. on September 21, filed a request on the Rutgers housing website; he wrote, "roommate used webcam to spy on me/want a single room." Wake up to the day's most important news. Dharun Ravi caused this with his actionsand should be punished accordingly. "[14], On September 21, Ravi sent a friend a series of text messages, including messages saying, "Yeah, keep the gays away" and "People are having a viewing party with a bottle of Bacardi and beer in this kid's room for my roommate" along with directions on how to view it remotely. But he ended up being deported to Cambodia, a country he had left as a child. 30 year older men in an undergraduate setting are generally professors and treated like demi-gods/parental figures. I have run out of fucks to give about Dharun Ravi. What started this chain of events? You don't apologise to change people's minds. It's been 3 1/2 years since he was convicted on 15 counts of bias intimidation, invasion of privacy and evidence tampering for cyberspying on his roommate. testified that he had not shaved the evening of the encounter. [8] Marcellus A. McRae, a former federal prosecutor uninvolved in the case, hailed the guilty verdicts as "a watershed moment, because it says youth is not immunity". He said that he tried talking to him but Tyler was pretty unresponsive/shy. He said, "I had hoped for all concerned that a trial could have been avoided, but that was not my choice. And I think its pretty clear in this case that the person was mentally ill. They need 25,000 signatures before April 15. I just really wish that if people are going to make public apologies, they actually apologize rather than give us yet another non-apology apology, Nevertheless, I decided to accept and hopefully complete the sentence as soon as possible. I apologize to everyone affected by those choices. Ravi, Lun, Pacheco are different from them. He noted that Ravi's Twitter messages, revealed during the trial, showed that "he was not just a mischievous kid pulling a prank", though he also felt that the outcome of the case "totally remains to be seen".